[NTLUG:Discuss] CPU History

[Steve Baker]

Greg Edwards wrote:

> Sorry David but I have to disagree with your opinion that about 
> companies like Nvidia releasing their technical specs.  They don't do it 
> for Windows drivers so why should we expect it for Linux drivers?
The interfaces for most things are not routinely released these days - but
often they can be had just by asking nicely.  That's NOT true for modern
3D graphics cards.

> The fact that they are doing Linux drivers is a very good sign.  This 
> means that support for hardware will be available on Linux just as well 
> as it is for that other OS.

It's becoming absolutely critical.  If the major 3D card drivers DIDN'T
release drivers for Linux, we'd soon be unable to support Linux on the
desktop at all.

If there were no 3D drivers for Linux, the company I work for would be
forced to use Windoze for everything...I'd be out of a job.

There would be no decent 3D games anymore - and since games are almost
ALL 3D nowadays, there would be no games (worth playing) within a short
time.

> Actually if you think about it this has to 
> torque off Master Bill since he can't seem to control these folks like 
> he does Compaq and other PC makers.

Yes.

> If all computer companies released their specs then their profits and 
> ability to survive would be toast.

Well - no.  If the ALL did that, it would marginally increase the price
of their products.  The problem is that if any ONE of them does it, their
business suffers relative to their competition - so they can't do it.

> Our business system depends on 
> revenues and profits, not charity work.  That's the system the world 
> works in and until that changes free software will be a nitch and not 
> the rule.

It's not charity.

ATI and nVidia both sell hardware to Linux users (nowhere near as much
as they sell to Windoze users - but enough to be measurable).
Evidently there is enough business here to warrant the effort to port
their Windoze drivers to Linux.

nVidia are actually the Good Guys here.  They provide drivers for
IA32, IA64 and AMD64 CPU types under Linux - also drivers for FreeBSD.
ATI have only just released (binary only) drivers for their latest cards
under Linux IA32 and the other remaining 3D vendors provide *NOTHING*.

ATI did release partial specs for their 8000 series cards - but not
for any of the fancy recent stuff.

> I do believe that the OS is a different animal than add on applications 
> and high performance video drivers.  I think that it's kind of like an 
> engine in a car where you don't have to pay for the base model engine 
> just to be able to drive off the lot.  Fully open OSes allow for freedom 
> of choice and a more robust development environment for add on 
> applications.

Right.

OpenGL drivers are horrifically complex compared to *ANY* other device
interfaces.  Graphics cards change on a 9 month cycle.   No other devices
innovate at that rate...each new card design needs a new version of the
Linux driver - and it needs to be available within hours of the card
hitting the store shelves.   I don't see how OpenSource can respond at
that rate.  Look at something like scanners. The interface specs are
often published - but still, stable drivers only exist for obsolete devices.

A couple of years ago when I looked at the compatibility list for Scanners
- then took that list to Fry's, not one of the scanners they had on the
shelves was supported - every single one of the supported devices were
obsolete.  The lead time for OpenSource drivers is just too long.

The Mesa project has been struggling to support just the few 3D cards they
DO have specs for - those are VERY simple cards compared to the latest
generation of nVidia and ATI hardware.  The specs for the G200 and G400
cards have been out for years - and STILL the Mesa driver is crap compared
to nVidia GeForce drivers.

Even if they had the hardware specs, I very much doubt that the Mesa team
could keep up with the rate of hardware innovation in this area.

So, I don't think that having nVidia release the specs would help us a
whole lot...and it's really not going to happen...trust me, I work with
those guys on a regular basis.

I'd prefer to pressure them to release the sources for the drivers they DO
support - even if it had to be under NDA to a nominated Linux support team.
(Remember that's what 3Dfx did initially with their GLIDE drivers for the
Voodoo 3D card). I don't think any of the 3D hardware vendors would be
remotely likely to do that either - but it's a much more realistic
proposition.

---------------------------- Steve Baker -------------------------
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