[NTLUG:Discuss] Linux Programming Classes??

[Tom Adelstein]

I wasn't going to weigh in on this one either. No one wins, do they? If 
you go buy pure economics,  the majority of programming jobs available 
(right now) are for Java.

sjbaker1 at airmail.net wrote:

> I hate getting dragged into Language Wars - but this Ada love-fest
> make me deeply ill - it CERTAINLY doesn't represent the views of the
> vast majority of programmers who had to suffer through it.
>
> Darin W. Smith wrote:
>
>> Think of it as a C compiler being set to interpret all warnings as 
>> errors, and just for good measure throws in lint in its entirety.
>
>
> Like "g++ -Wall -Werror" ?
>
> Every good realtime programmer I ever met who worked with Ada agreed 
> that it
> was a HORRIBLE language and were glad to see the back of it.  It 
> 'nannies' you
> - which is OK if you make a lot of trivial errors - but acts like a 
> strait-jacket
> once you know what you're doing.
>
> C/C++'s warnings are warnings for a reason.  It's because they aren't 
> ALWAYS
> solid indications of some fatal problem with your code - they are just
> suspicious little things you might care to be reminded of.  Things 
> that are
> DEFINITELY problems and cannot possibly be correct are errors as they 
> should be.
>
> When you have a language where everything HAS to be an error, there is no
> scope for the compiler to give you ADVICE.   Things like potentially 
> uninitialised
> variables for example...these are often indications that you've made 
> an error,
> but other times, you didn't initialise the variable because you KNOW 
> it doesn't
> need to be initialised and you want to save a machine cycle by not 
> initialising it.
>
> If the compiler has to ERROR for that condition then it forces every 
> variable
> to be initialised even when that's utterly redundant and happening in 
> some
> utterly time-critical loop somewhere.
>
> So - when you have poor programmers, Ada catches their little 
> boo-boo's and
> slaps them on the wrist for it - but when you have a really good 
> programming
> team, it's like programming with lead weights strapped to your wrists.
>
> Heck - I even sat on one of the committies that designed Ada (The "Ada 
> Telecoms
> Access Committee") - it was the worst case of 'design by committee' 
> that I've
> ever come across.  Every 'language lawyer', 'abstract programming 
> language
> expert' and god knows what came out of the woodwork - and everyone wanted
> their pet ideas crammed into Ada.  It was a deeply horrible experience.
>
> YUK, YUK, YUK!!!
>
>> Best Ada story I have?  Years after leaving the defense industry, I 
>> was working at a telecom startup with more than a few former defense 
>> workers.  In a code-review of some of my code, I'd made a subtle C++ 
>> error (I can't remember what--probably a strange cast that the 
>> compiler allowed but would give an undesired result).  I commented 
>> that C++ was a hideous language for allowing me to even do that.  A 
>> friend of mine (realizing my thought pattern) then polled the 
>> reviewers:  "Who here wishes this project was written using Ada?"  
>> The vote was unanimous in favor of Ada amongst all those who had been 
>> exposed to both languages.  
>
>
> Geez - you know some *sick* people.
>
> When the 'Ada requirement' was dropped for military work, we *partied*.
>
> C++ is like driving a Porsche - it's fast, responsive and does EXACTLY
> what you tell it.  Ada is like driving a Volvo Estate wagon...safe, 
> boring,
> it'll get you there eventually.
>
> Don't give a novice a Porsche - but please don't make race-drivers drive
> a Volvo Estate.
>
> Ada might have had it's place in applications where lives were at stake
> and utter, mind-numbing correctness was a real need - but for people 
> doing
> realtime systems where every last drop of compute power needs to be 
> squeezed
> out, you can't beat C and C++ - which is why they have come to 
> overwhelmingly
> dominate the world of programming languages in the last 20 years.
>
> If Ada is so great - how come people left it in droves at the very first
> opportunity?  How come Linux (which post-dates Ada) isn't written in Ada?
> Look at SourceForge - 11,189 projects using C, 10,915 using C++, 67 
> using Ada -
> heck there are more project written Zope than Ada!  Those few Ada 
> projects that
> there are are ALL there as Ada support tools - none are just 'general' 
> software
> packages written in Ada because it was the language the developer 
> preferred for
> the job.
>
> There is a reason for that - programmers know their craft and have 
> honed their
> tools - the theoreticians and lawyers who forced Ada down our throats 
> didn't
> know a damned thing about practical programming and their design for Ada
> reflects that.
>
> ---------------------------- Steve Baker -------------------------
> HomeEmail: <sjbaker1 at airmail.net>    WorkEmail: <sjbaker at link.com>
> HomePage : http://www.sjbaker.org
> Projects : http://plib.sf.net    http://tuxaqfh.sf.net
>            http://tuxkart.sf.net http://prettypoly.sf.net
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