[NTLUG:Discuss] Install Gripes

[MadHat Unspecific]

Stephen Davidson wrote:
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> 
> Hey Madhat.
> 
> Responses inlined;

Where else would they be?

> 
> MadHat Unspecific wrote:
> |
> |
> | Thanks for signing your message, hate to think it was spoofed from
> | someone else.
> |
> | This does not "constructively sum up" anything.  You sent a link to
> | someone saying Windows is consistent and Linux is not.  This is BULL
> | SHIT, plain and simple.  Anyone who believes this does not work on both
> | systems on a regular basis.  Windows has a method of updating the system
> | automagically.  This only covers the portions of the  OS and helper apps
> | that are distributed with the OS.  Most major linux distributions do the
> | same.  In the windows world there are some common installers, but not
> | every 3rd party app uses them.   Not all apps install in the same place.
> |   Not all apps are able to be easily uninstaled.  Not all apps
> | automagically update themselves.
> |
> | Now looking at Linux.  If we look at a few major distros, like RedHat,
> | Fedora, CentOS, Suse, Ubuntu, etc...  all of these have methods of
> | installing via a simple GUI that installs the latest apps available for
> | that version of the OS. They are all installed the same way (on each
> | distro respectively) and maintained by the developers of the OS in
> | centralized repositories.   They are uninstalled in all the same way
> | (using the distro's package manager most of the time).  Now, we can look
> | outside of the distro's repositories, we run into the same problem as we
> | have with windows, inconsistent installers or packaging methods,
> | uninstall routines, etc...  Hey Guess what, they are all in the same
> | boat.  Windows, Linux distros, Mac, BSD distros....
> 
> Unfortunately, the blurb that was sent sums up my current experiences
> with installing software on Linux.  For my laptop, I use SuSE, which
> does a half decent job of handling these issues, most of the time.
> 
> But I routinely run into issues were, for various reasons, the installs
> fail (if I can even get them to start).  My latest sets were on Fedora
> Core 8 & 9, btw.  On Fedora Core 9, it was the Alternatives system(?),
> which was symlinking to OS installed versions of software, NOT the
> versino I had just installed via RPM.  (And yes, it WAS an RPM for
> Redhat Linux -- don't remember what version, was a couple of weeks ago).
> ~ For Fedora 8, well, I sill have not solved THAT problem.  (Packages
> such as Firefox installed, but I can not get them to come up via an SSH
> link -- but I can when logging in via SSH to other machines).
> 
> So, the next thing, is "RTFM" -- which in one case did, but was not
> enough.  In the Fedora case, I have not even been able to figure out
> what question to ask about what its issue is -- and Google has not yet
> turned up anything relevant or useful.  So, burning money and time on an
> issue that is supposed to be a 'simple install'.  And this issue, I
> don't even know if 'reading the source', a frequent answer (although not
> normally from here -- thanks!) would be adequate, if I could even figure
> out what source to read.
> 
> I will grant that most programs do not uninstall from MS properly, but
> they DO install there properly far more frequently and easily than
> anything comparable in Linux right now.
> 
> And that's been kind of the whole point of that article and this thread.
> ~ End users like me --- we need usability and sane defaults.  SuSE and
> Ubuntu are two that have making good strides in the right direction --
> although both still have a ways to go.

My experiences are completely different, but that may be partially 
because of my knowledge base and my experience.  Regardless of the OS, 
packages that are implemented properly work well and those that aren't, 
don't.  I have had great success with RedHat and CentOS.  Every package 
I ahve installed in the past 2 years has worked and the dependencies 
have been installed automagically.  Updates have not broken anything 
either.  Yet for some reason, I can't run updates from Microsoft.  One 
box will not install a patch and tells me it needs it regularly. 
Another will reboot and lose settings.  It's all about personal 
experience.  I am sorry you have had bad luck with Linux.  Maybe you 
should try another distro?  On my boxes packages/installers work more 
often than not, on all Linux, Mac and Winders boxes.  But I know what 
each can do and what their limitations are.  I would not try to run 
something under wine and expect perfect results.  I would not use the 
ndis wrapper and expect it to work 100% of the time.  Hell, I can't get 
wireless to work 100% of the time on any OS.  I have great luck with 
Linux.  I like it and use it daily.  My servers run it and I ahve a 
desktop and laptop running it.  I also have Microsoft running exchange, 
because it was requested, not a personal opinion, and it works for the 
most part.  I also have windows desktops for gaming and as a file 
server.  I use the MS server for file serving because I like the backup 
solutions better on Windows than on Linux.  I also have a MacBook Pro I 
use as my day to day machine for checking mail, surfing and chatting. 
All of these work well because I use them for what I need and what I 
felt was the best environment for each.  I have almost no problems 
installing software on any of them, but I also keep in mind that 
computers suck, they are never close to perfect and I expect them to all 
die without notice or reason.  If you expect to find a perfect OS, stop 
now and go heard goats, you'll be lest frustrated.  I personally like 
RPMs and yum.  I have had great success with them.  I would probably use 
Linux on my laptop, but I ahve had bad luck with the WiFi drivers on the 
laptops I had in the past.  My latest testing shows they ahve gotten 
much better, but I alreadyhave my shiny MacBook, so why fix what ain't 
broke.

Each person will have their own personal experiences.  If you are having 
a really bad experience with Linux, maybe you shouldn't use it the way 
you are trying.  Maybe you should take a step back, install the OS you 
are comfortable, which seems to be winders, and then practice on Linux 
via a Virtual machine (VMWare server is Free now) or live CD.

Just because you are used to one thing does not mean that anything that 
appears different is actually wrong or broken, it is just your level of 
experience and comfort.  I have seen a lot change over the years. 
Computers are spectacular things that never work right.  They keep 
getting more and more complex, opening more and more opportunities for 
failure.  Go with what you know.  Make the experience as painless as 
possible.

-- 
MadHat (at) Unspecific.com
"The true man wants two things: danger and play.
  For that reason he wants woman, as the most dangerous plaything."
                           - Friedrich Nietzsche