[NTLUG:Discuss] Job Searching

Fri Nov 9 01:37:14 CST 2001

I'll try to summarize my sentiments in this single message...

Steve wrote in a prior message:
>Well, let's be careful with the Xenophobia here.
>
>I'm one of those foreigners who came here on an H1-B.  I agree that there
are
>cases where companies abuse the H1-B system to bring in cheap labour -
people
>who are "in green-card jail" can't easily change jobs and stand no chance
of
>ever getting a pay rise.

First, I don't care how hard or bad it is for foreigners who come here
[invited] under an H1-B visa.  That only makes them more "innocent" as
victims but irrelevant to the case.

The case here is the U.S. government allowing import workers to replace
workers in the U.S.  This is a case of the government supporting business
interests at the expense of its own citizens.  I don't care how you cut it,
CITIZENS first, everyone else second.  No one can ever disagree with that.
If you can dispute that point, I'd be interested in an intelligent argument
regarding that.

Stever writes more:
>HOWEVER - to apply a blanket ban is sheer stupidity.  Look at my personal
>circumstances:
>
>  1) I was *INVITED* to come to the US and work - I didn't ask.  The work I
>     do is flight simulation - primarily for the US armed forces.  Every
F117
>     pilot and practically every F18 pilot fighting out in Afghanistan
right
>     now learned to do critical parts of his job on simulators that I
helped
>     to design.  Ditto for F16 pilots if they get involved.

If not you, someone else... and if not for H1-B visa abuse, it would have
been a well-paid U.S. Citizen.

>  3) Whilst there is no shortage of technical people here, there *IS* a
>     vast shortage in some fields.  Mine is one of those.  The company I
>     work for has been trying to recruit more people with my skills for at
>     least the past 5 years - with exactly zero success.

Don't fool yourself.  Free market rules suggest that that prices are set by
demand.  The (ab)use of H1-B visas allow for market participation at lower
bid rates.  The recruiters stack the cards against qualified U.S. citizens
regularly by requiring high qualifications at too low a pay rate.  That is
exactly why positions "advertised" for so long go unhired.  It's all part of
the game as stated by another writer.

>  4) It's not *always* that H1-B's are cheaper and depress local salaries
>     - I earn well over $100k not counting the 20 hours paid overtime I
>     do most weeks. That's a LOT for a programmer..specialised knowledge
>     or not.  I'm not here as "cheap labour".

...fuel to the fire...  That's pretty decent pay, I'll give you that... a
U.S. worker with the same quals would likely earn more though.  I know I'll
regret even asking, but what exactly are your qualifications on this?

>  5) In order to turn my H1-B into a work permit, they had to *PROVE* to
>     the INS that nobody in the US is both willing and able to do the job
>     at the current market salary.  They had to advertise the job - record
every
>     letter, resume, phone call, etc from applicants for *my* job - and
>     individually explain to the INS why each candidate was rejected.
>     If they had found someone, I'd have been on the next plane back home.

Proof is subjective to the rules twisted, bent and broken to serve their
interests, which incidentally, serves those of the people who recruited
you -- someone got a VERY tasty bonus for selling out a U.S. citizen... a
bonus typically based on a percentage of what you earn.  It's in their
interests that you get a higher salary as well.  Regardless of the rules in
place and all the audits that are run to verify compliance, proof of abuse
is common enough and punishment is small enough not to act as a deterant.
No one can deny that audits regularly uncover the kind of abuse I complain
about so spare the argument... rules are good only when followed.

[Steve goes on to discuss international relations]

Do I need to counter that with the policies and attitudes regarding U.S.
Americans in European countries?  I didn't think so... invalid argument.

As for where "programmer farms from abroad" is concerned -- many U.S.
companies aren't usually willing to participate in that because it means
lower security of their IP (Intellectual Property).  To the lawers and
bean-counters of a corporation, IP *is* the product of the labor and must
remain safely within the walls of the company.  So where there are cases
where it happens, most companies are uncomfortable with the idea.

So, in summary and closing, H1-B visas have proven themselves to be an
abused commodity where it is regularly used to outplace or deny U.S.
citizens an opportunity for work at a fair-market rate.  Fair-market rate is
lowered through these market manipulations in spite of the rules set forth
by the government.  U.S. law should maintain a stance supporting its
citizens first and foremost... it does mostly, but it's just broken too
often.  No one can argue that it is wonderful for the recipient of the H1-B
visas and their families... yay for them and woe to the U.S. citizen and his
family.

This is not Xenophobia -- this is a tragedy that our own people are selling
out our own country's citizens to make a few bucks.  We're all people, but
we have our own countries.  If yours isn't producing, look to your own
government to serve your needs, not the U.S. government.  Why is the U.S. so
'hated' by the rest of the world yet the U.S. is the first place people want
to live or look to for help?

"[...a minimal drain on resources...]"?  If you're earning $100k, you can
bet a U.S. citizen would be getting $120k or more... especially if the
demand were there.  Further, if a company were truly interested in having
such qualified people, they would, can and should PAY for people to be
trained with the necessary skills.  The fact is, companies want to pay less
and it will always be that way.  It's up to the government to serve the
interests of its people first and all too often that's not the case.  You
think no one can be trained to do your job?  They just don't want to pay for
it.  They are willing to break, twist and bend the rules to save a few
thousand not to mention selling out U.S. citizens.

I can't see a single reason to have H1-B visas at all.  If a company needs a
worker, the company should be able to hire someone who is trainable from
within the U.S.  "Unique skills and abilities" are exceptions to that rule,
but they are a lot more rare than people supporting H1-Bs are willing to
admit.  No one posesses "magic" and all skills can be learned.  Companies
need to pay U.S. citizens and train U.S. citizens instead of paying
Lobbyists and Labor brokers.

H1-Bs were designed as an exception to the rule.  A group of people have
managed to leverage this exception into a multi-billion-dollar industry.
It's immoral.  It's harmful to the interests of U.S. citizens.  It's harmful
to labor market demand.

Again, I speak of H1-B visa abuse, not legitimate application and use.  But
it's abundantly clear that it is being abused on such a scale that it
displaces U.S. workers from jobs and lowers wage market rates with its
unnatural manipulation.  If a company can't get a qualified person at $35k,
they should pay more until they can get a person to do it... if there aren't
enough qualified people, they should train them, not shop for labor from
other countries.  We have too many unemployed and homeless people to ignore
so that a company can save a few bucks and make a group of share holders
happy.  Again, it's government serving the interests of the few at the
expense of the many.  It's wrong and inappropriate.

So tell me again why U.S. Citizens should be fired and replaced with H1-B
visas?  Let's speak in generalities that cover the majority of the
situation.  Let's not talk about distractive exceptions to the rule.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Baker" <sjbaker1 at airmail.net>
To: <discuss at ntlug.org>
Sent: Friday, November 09, 2001 5:42 AM
Subject: Re: [NTLUG:Discuss] Job Searching

> Daniel Hauck wrote:
>
> > > Now here's the nasty twist.  If companies can't import the H1B workers
> > > they want, especially software companies, it is tremendously easy to
> > > have the development work done overseas (essentially an unlimited H1B
> > > situation) and then just transfer the software back here via the
> > > internet.  Package it up here, perhaps (and claim that it's American
> > > made) and sell it.  All without any American software engineering.
The
> > > jobs are gone permanently.  There is no law against it.  Oh, yeah, and
> > > the guys with the stock options and bonuses have just made a killing.
> >
> > If that kind of thing would really work, it'd be done a bit more often
than
> > it is now.  The REALITY is that, as far as software development is
> > concerned, experienced American programmers are training and guiding the
> > sweat-shop programmers from other countries... can't get that
benefit/effect
> > if you move the shop overseas.
>
> That's absolutely *NOT* the case everywhere.  I recently did some
contracting
> with a company in California who have most of their programmers working in
> India.  I initially presumed that there would be US programmers driving
> the operation - but not so, the US office was relegated to beta testing
> and turning the Indians' technical documentation into decent American
> English...the only parts that couldn't be done in their satellite office.
>
> With email as the primary means of communication, and programmers the
> world over working strange hours by preference in many cases, you really
> couldn't tell where the work was being done.
>
> America's educational system really isn't that much better than many
> other countries - and all it takes to make a good programmer is education
> and a $400 PC.  It's naive to think that other countries can't do that.
>
> Where US companies have the advantage is in finances, etc - that's why
> you'll see US front-offices with programmers working abroad.
>
> ----------------------------- Steve Baker -------------------------------
> Mail : <sjbaker1 at airmail.net>   WorkMail: <sjbaker at link.com>
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