[NTLUG:Discuss] Job Searching

[Steve Baker]

Daniel Hauck wrote:

> First, I don't care how hard or bad it is for foreigners who come here
> [invited] under an H1-B visa.  That only makes them more "innocent" as
> victims but irrelevant to the case.

Yes.
 
> The case here is the U.S. government allowing import workers to replace
> workers in the U.S.  This is a case of the government supporting business
> interests at the expense of its own citizens.  I don't care how you cut it,
> CITIZENS first, everyone else second.  No one can ever disagree with that.
> If you can dispute that point, I'd be interested in an intelligent argument
> regarding that.

I agree that there is a responsibility to citizens before foreigners like
myself - but a blanket ban on H1-B visa's would drive more companies out of
business and result in LESS jobs for US citizens - not more.  That's why
H1-B visa's were created in the first place.
 
> >  1) I was *INVITED* to come to the US and work - I didn't ask.  The work I
> >     do is flight simulation - primarily for the US armed forces.  Every
> F117
> >     pilot and practically every F18 pilot fighting out in Afghanistan
> right
> >     now learned to do critical parts of his job on simulators that I
> helped
> >     to design.  Ditto for F16 pilots if they get involved.
> 
> If not you, someone else... and if not for H1-B visa abuse, it would have
> been a well-paid U.S. Citizen.

If not me, here in the US - then me in UK working for Rediffusion, or me in France
working for Thompson or in Canada working for one of the canadian simulator
companies.

I repeat - despite trying VERY hard to get more people to do this work, we are
unable to find US citizens who can do this work.  We train people as hard as we
can - but the people we train are frequently head-hunted by foreign simulator
companies.

> >  3) Whilst there is no shortage of technical people here, there *IS* a
> >     vast shortage in some fields.  Mine is one of those.  The company I
> >     work for has been trying to recruit more people with my skills for at
> >     least the past 5 years - with exactly zero success.
> 
> Don't fool yourself.  Free market rules suggest that that prices are set by
> demand.

Yes - they are.  Since there is a horrific shortage of people with relevent
experience, the wages are high - both for US citizens and others.  Other engineers
where I work are not earning more than me...they never have - even when I was
in "H1-B jail" (now I have a Green Card - so I could leave and work elsewhere).

> The (ab)use of H1-B visas allow for market participation at lower
> bid rates.  The recruiters stack the cards against qualified U.S. citizens
> regularly by requiring high qualifications at too low a pay rate.  That is
> exactly why positions "advertised" for so long go unhired.  It's all part of
> the game as stated by another writer.

Right - so reform the system (in ways I suggested) to prevent abuse.  Don't just
shut it down - that's *STOOPID*.
 
> >  4) It's not *always* that H1-B's are cheaper and depress local salaries
> >     - I earn well over $100k not counting the 20 hours paid overtime I
> >     do most weeks. That's a LOT for a programmer..specialised knowledge
> >     or not.  I'm not here as "cheap labour".
> 
> ...fuel to the fire...  That's pretty decent pay, I'll give you that... a
> U.S. worker with the same quals would likely earn more though.

Well, the other people on my team don't earn more...but it's almost academic
because there are so few US people who can do the work.

>  I know I'll
> regret even asking, but what exactly are your qualifications on this?

Well, I only have a regular Computing/Cybernetics degree - but I have
20 years of experience in flight simulation.  It's a VERY obscure field
and there are probably less than 10,000 people world wide who do this
work.  You can't learn this stuff from books - the only way is to start
as a junior engineer and learn on-the-job.
 
> >  5) In order to turn my H1-B into a work permit, they had to *PROVE* to
> >     the INS that nobody in the US is both willing and able to do the job
> >     at the current market salary.  They had to advertise the job - record
> every
> >     letter, resume, phone call, etc from applicants for *my* job - and
> >     individually explain to the INS why each candidate was rejected.
> >     If they had found someone, I'd have been on the next plane back home.
> 
> Proof is subjective to the rules twisted, bent and broken to serve their
> interests, which incidentally, serves those of the people who recruited
> you -- someone got a VERY tasty bonus for selling out a U.S. citizen... a
> bonus typically based on a percentage of what you earn.

Actually, I know the guy who recruited me very well (although I didn't at
the time) - he didn't get a bonus.  And he DIDN'T SELL OUT A US CITIZEN - they'd
been trying to recruit someone in the US for over a year before they called me.
It was a choice between bringing in a foreign worker - or not being in that
part of the business.  I'd have been doing the same work - just not for a US
company.  Those F117 and F18 pilots would have been training on a British or
Canadian simulator visual system - and a dozen LESS US Citizens would have
jobs.

I'm not saying that there isn't abuse - there is plenty of evidence that there
is - but shutting down the entire system is like killing the goose that lays
the golden eggs because it sometimes lays a lemon.

Reform is certainly called for - but not a blanket ban.

> So, in summary and closing, H1-B visas have proven themselves to be an
> abused commodity where it is regularly used to outplace or deny U.S.
> citizens an opportunity for work at a fair-market rate.  Fair-market rate is
> lowered through these market manipulations in spite of the rules set forth
> by the government.

Right - so there need to be better rules and tighter checking - not a blanket ban.

> "[...a minimal drain on resources...]"?  If you're earning $100k, you can
> bet a U.S. citizen would be getting $120k or more...

Nope - I don't believe that any of my (US) co-workers are earning more.

> especially if the demand were there.

The demand *IS* there...and if you have a dozen years of flight sim experience
and have an established reputation in a small industry, you too can be doing this.

> Again, I speak of H1-B visa abuse, not legitimate application and use.

Ah!  Finally - we agree.

   ABUSE == BAD
   LEGITIMATE APPLICATION == GOOD

Hence: Fix the abuse and don't just ban H1-B's.

> So tell me again why U.S. Citizens should be fired and replaced with H1-B
> visas?  Let's speak in generalities that cover the majority of the
> situation.  Let's not talk about distractive exceptions to the rule.

Of course US citizens shouldn't be fired and replaced by H1-B people - that
*should* be flat out illegal (I suspect it already is actually)...and such
laws should be vigerously enforced.

But the argument that my company should have waited 8 to 10 years for their
people to slowly gain the needed expertise while the rest of the world sold
simulators to the US military is ludicrous.  They imported the expertise they
needed - getting a relatively cheap leg-up on the competition (and incidentally
deprived them of their best people).  If they operated in the way you suggest,
they'd have been out of business years ago and there would be another thousand
US tech workers out of jobs.

----------------------------- Steve Baker -------------------------------
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