[NTLUG:Discuss] OT: Fried

[Steve Baker]

Allen Flick wrote:

> You're 100% correct here.  An added quirk to the whole thing is that "they"
> don't give us Americans a chance to bid on the jobs. It's the old "I know what
> they'll cost, no matter the economy, so I won't even talk to them".

OK - I just know I'm setting myself up for another round of insults, hate mail,
death-threats, etc...but maybe you'd like to hear the other side of the story.

I'm a British citizen - I was an H1B worker for seven year - I've had my
full Green-Card for about three years now.

My employer was required to advertise the job that they eventually gave to me
at the salary they were to offer me.  They had to do so in both two local
newspapers and (IIRC) some kind of relevent technical journal.  They then
had to record all telephone conversations, emails and letters/resume's from
people who applied for "my" job - and prove that none of those candidates would
be able to fulful the advertised qualifications.   Then - and only then - could
I get my work permit.

In my case, not one person applied for the job - even though the pay on offer
was excellent ($98k).

So, I don't think I was taking any American's job - I have an unusual skill set, so
that isn't suprising.  Moreover: the group I started up ten years ago is now employing
a dozen people (all US citizens - born and raised here).  Before I came here, the
company was importing systems from CAE (a Canadian company).  I helped us to switch
over to using our own software on Silicon Graphics equipment - and eventually to
becoming the world market leader in our field with a product of our own.  I maintain
that there are more US people in work because I'm here than there would have been if
I hadn't come.

I think I am an example of the H1B program doing what it is supposed to do - bring
skills into the US workforce to generally improve businesses and make US companies
more effective.

However, I'd be the first to agree that the system is broken.   The problem is that
unscrupulous US companies can offer these jobs at significantly BELOW the rate that
a qualified US resident would accept.  Since it's then possible to recruit foreign
workers on the cheap - there is an incentive to do just that and put people who have
a more legitimate claim to do the work out of the running.

That's bad.  The rules should be changed to say that you have to offer these jobs
AT THE CURRENT MARKET PAY RATES and that H1B workers have to get pay raises at least
in line with inflation.   At a stroke this would make it pointless to go through all
the terrible legal grief it takes to employ a foreign worker - and give companies
the incentive to take on local workers instead.

> I knew way back in May of 2001 that I was fried  when the PR person I
> talked to at a telecom company told me to not look for any return call because
> he was only doing his legal duty of talking to X number of Americans before
> he hired the H1B he wanted.

But that's illegal.  He has to prove that you were not qualified to do the work
or that you wouldn't accept the job at the pay rate they were offering to the H1B
people.   You should have reported them to the INS, sued them - whatever.  There
is no point in bitching about a law if you take no part in helping the authorities
to enforce it.

>>>It's about GREED not about qualifications or lack of local workers.
>>>Those of you that want to defend this BS just stick a sock in it!!!!

In SOME cases it's about qualifications and lack of local workers.

In SOME cases it's flagrant abuse of a law that needs some serious re-thinking.

It's naive to suggest it's all one way.

>>> And don't even try that
>>>argument about better trained or superior skills.  Tell those (and I
>>>know several) people that trained the cheaper worker who gave them the
>>>pleasure of collecting unemployment!@!!

It was true in my case.  I understand that there are cases where it's
not true - but it's not as black and white as you seem to think.

The H1B system IS broken - and it could (quite easily) be fixed if the
government were working for the people and not for big business.

More worrying by far is the overseas outsourcing situation.  I seriously
doubt that there is anything government can reasonably do about that.
Shutting down the H1B system would likely just result in companies giving
the jobs to the exact same people - but over in their own countries.   That's
*far* worse for the US economy than having an H1B worker on the books because
at least H1B's pay full US taxes and spend much of their earnings in the US
economy.  Money sent to pay people overseas is just money lost to the economy.

In the long term, there is really nothing new here.  Iron & steel workers,
ship builders, textile workers, consumer electronics and others have seen
this pattern.  A new technology is developed by US or European skills, we
all get to profit from it for 50 to 100 years - then the second tier countries
catch up and come in with cheaper workers and take it over.  This causes
terrible grief until the next big thing comes along.

What's changing is that this 100 year cycle is getting shorter.

The US and European countries can only survive by pushing their educational
systems and their research programs to produce new technologies - with matching
worker skills.