[NTLUG:Discuss] Mac v. Linux

Wed Jun 8 07:53:36 CDT 2005

yeah... long post. =]

While I will accept everything you have said, I just do not think it matters for
sun.  It's still too little to late:

- High powered workstations... yeah, it's a great box, but who's buying them in
volume?  The last 3 places I've worked $2000 was better than twice the budget
for desktop computers.

- sparc development... on the low end, they seem to be priced at about twice
what a comparible intel based box would be.  High end Intel doesn't really have
comparible.  I don't deny that they are technically great boxes, but, from the
prospective of providing business services, horizonal scalability is a much
easier sale than vertical.  Buying a $500,000 to $2,000,000 box is just about
impossible these days.  Though, I'll admit that may be just the environments I
have been in (with the exception of the db space, which still likes big boxes,
but I think google is proving that may not be true much longer).

remember, technical superiority isn't necessarily a winning business model:
ref Microsoft vs Apple, VHS vs Betamax, Excel vs Lotus...  I won't nail Sun's
coffin yet, but come on... Solaris as a relevent desktop OS? It just isn't
going to happen anytime soon.

j

Quoting Chris Cox <cjcox at acm.org>:

> jpmiller at quorumhost.com wrote:
> > solaris?? I'm trying to decide if you're flaming, kidding, or if I should
> > actually respond...
> >
> > Sun is a dying company... has been for years, if you don't believe me,
> check the
>
> Sun is having difficulty.  But they aren't stupid.
>
> > stock market.  The only thing keeping solaris alive is Fujitsu, and they
> have GE
> > level resources, so they'll be around for a while.  But the Japanese are
> smart,
> > when nobody cares anymore that they can beat Sun on performance for like
> 80% of
> > the price, they'll quit doing the solaris R&D for Sun.
> >
> > Sun may be around for a while... but they are pricey and the market is
> > tolerating that less every year... the move to amd workstations is a good
> move
> > for them to keep costs in control, but they still put out a very expensive
> box,
> > and I've seen steady detorating demand for that.
>
> It is a fact that Sun is an enemy of Linux.  Sun's once enemy,
> Microsoft, has now banded together with Sun in an attempt to deliver
> a corporate business knock-out punch.... the in depth partnership
> between Sun and Microsoft is for 10 years (but I think we're closer to
> only 9 yearsremaining now).  The first fruits were in the form of Sun's
> AMD platform which is WHQL certified (that is... certified to run
> Windows).  Sun's AMD line (soon to be upgraded with their Galaxy class
> release) is the ONLY platform certified to run Windows, Linux and
> Solaris.  Regardless of the future of Solaris... Sun's engineering on
> their lines are equal to if not better than HP (which is about 3 times
> as well engineered as Dell on the server side).
>
> Most of you know I own a w2100z Sun Java (sic) Workstation.  Of course
> mine runs Linux.  I'll gladly consider a different platform if you
> can show me a dual AMD 250 with 4G memory, 1x73G U320 SCSI and a Quadro
> 3000 for less than $2500.  Is that priced agressively enough?  Earlier
> this year I saw them going in that exact configuration for about $1800
> a piece(!!).  Mine is just a lowly dual AMD 246 with 2G and 1x73G SCSI,
> and I bought that for $2000 (still a good deal, but not nearly as
> good as the deal's Sun was recently making as they cleared out their
> inventory of the old workstations).
>
> I digress... my point is that NOBODY makes a more powerful machine
> for the money.  If you disagree... please post.
>
> Here's the specs for beating $2500:
>
> Dual AMD 250 or better
> 4G Ram
> 2x73G U320 SCSI
> Quadro 3000FX
> 5 USB 2.0
> 2 Firewire
> Onboard Audio
> DVD/CDRW
> (motherboard supports IDE/SATA and dual channel U320 SCSI.
> also has 1 64-bit PCI-X/133 and 4 64-bit PCI-X/100 and 1 32-bit PCI)
>
> Please, I beg of you, find this for $2500 and post where/who.
>
>
> >
> > linux may have some ground to cover still, but several of the distro's are
> > already solid enough to be taken seriously and in a far better position to
> be
> > that 3rd OS than solaris (isn't sun just as happy to run linux as they are
> > solaris on their opteron workstations?)
>
> Solaris 10 for the first time in years, represents a fairly major leap
> forward for Solaris (SVR4 based circa 1988).  A lot of that leap is
> because of Linux pressure.  I'm not a huge Solaris fan.  However some
> of their more embarassing mistakes have been elminated in Solaris 10.
> Anything before that is a sad, sad, sad tale of "don't let this happen
> to you".
>
> Sun IS NOT supportive of Linux.. NO.. NONE.  The goal was
> simply a stop gap measure.  Btw, so is the AMD thing.  AMD's design
> suitably impressed Sun and fills in the enterprise for them with
> a good x86 thing.  However, their flagship SPARC is continue to
> evolve and their goal is to push extreme multi-core... they'll
> push AMD as well... but they'll make sure the future SPARCs do
> everything the AMD does and more.  JDS was alway intended to
> be an interface design for Solaris not for Linux.
>
> Solaris 10, doesn't make me a Sun fanboy, but I think it's a bit
> premature to hammer in all the nails into the Sun coffin. Microsoft
> has already made $10-20 million dollars of direct and indirect
> investment in Sun.  Microsoft has money and needs a cooperative
> ally (and so nicely as far as the "watchful" eye of our gov't),
> an ally once position in direct competition with Microsoft.  Together
> Sun and Microsoft will provide the best support Active Directory
> to Unix integration system (duh).  This is like Samba and OpenLDAP
> except that it will work better and actually be supported (from the
> traditional non-free software perspective).
>
> Don't count Sun out... and remember that there is NO difference
> betweeen talking to Sun and talking to Microsoft.
>
> Sun and Microsoft's primary goal over this 10 year treaty is to
> desimate Linux in the enterprise (perceived to be Red Hat).
> Once the 10 year period is over, I fully expect Sun and Microsoft
> to go back to the corners and prepare for the final showdown.
> I like to think of it as the "Highlander"... you can befriend
> another immortal, but eventually the quickening will bring
> you together... for there can only be one.
>
> (of course this is only true if they are successful in kicking
> Linux out of the corporate enterprise... giggle)
>
> Things to look for from Sun over the next year or so...
>
> 1. Better AMD designs.
> 2. Better SPARCs.
> 3. Extreme multicores.
> 4. Heterogenous blade units.
> 5. Low, low power consumption.
>
> This is a lot of crystal ball, but based on some of the
> more trustworthy information sources out there (I actually
> know what's coming out... but I'm under NDA).
>
> Sun's worst enemy is themselves.  It is well known
> that the first fruits of the Sun+Microsoft relationship
> took a whole lot longer than what was expected (I'm talking
> about their identify mgmt integration, not the HW thing).
> As these two get comfortable with each other, things should
> speed up.  Also, it is a well known fact that there is
> a  bit of an AMD vs. SPARC problem at Sun.. although
> they'll vehemently deny this.  Sun is certainly playing
> the field and their message lacks consistency right
> now (they seem to be all over the map).  It's up to
> Sun to make everthing successful at Sun.  They're decision
> to side with Microsoft and they're decision to attack
> Linux in the workplace are also examples of where
> Sun is making some tactical mistakes.
>
> I don't have much to say on the Apple front.  Their move
> took me by surprise.  I think it may actually be
> the death of Apple.... we'll see.
>
> Sorry about the long message... but I think news of Sun's
> death has been slightly exaggerated.... I'd given them
> at least 5 more years before I'll hammer in the last
> nail. :)
>
> Chris
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> https://ntlug.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>

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