[NTLUG:Discuss] I hate IcedTea

Sat Jun 8 15:30:32 CDT 2013

On 06/06/2013 12:07 AM, Christopher Cox wrote:
> On 06/04/2013 12:57 AM, Leroy Tennison wrote:
>> <Rant> I understand the desire for open source alternatives to proprietary
>> technology but they have to work...  A recent OpenSuse update stopped a working
>> IcedTea configuration to my corporate network and I really need that connection
>> right now. </Rant>
> Java, even from Sunoracle is a HUGE roll of the die.
>
> In fact, just mentioning Oracle should send chills down your spine.  While I
> realize that there is a vast majority of people and systems out there that are
> Java dependent, that doesn't make the risk any less in my book.
>
> In fact, your example sort of proves the point.
>
> So, beware of anything Java.  It might not work tomorrow.  If you keep that in
> mind, you'll probably be ok.
>
> Java never really delivered on the promise that arguably makes it so popular
> today.  The idea of a cross platform execution environment.  With Java, you
> can't even say that what you create today, using "official" classes will work
> with the next minor release of Java (and I'm talking about the sub-sub release
> level).... and that's on the SAME platform, much less across platforms.
>
> Also, Java is a full execution environment (because of its desired goal of being
> truly cross platform) which means that it cannot benefit from OS and/or platform
> specifics in many circumstances, which means it's weighty because it has to
> reinvent many things that are commonplace on good OS's.
>
> Thus when a major problem happens in a core OS library, there are times when
> there will have to be a major corresponding patch to Java as well.
>
> In a two OS world, which it's pretty much become... these problems with Java
> make it less and less desirable.  Arguably, on the more important server (e.g.
> services) side of the fence, it's pretty much a one horse show, and that horse
> is quasi-dead horse to Sunoracle (that is, any Linux distro besides their own
> proprietary twisted Red Hat fork).
>
> With that said, in a server/services based world, nobody really cares what you
> are running underneath the covers.  And again, the idea that Java has to be at
> the core, becomes the "poor choice"... again, due to who owns the technology in
> particular.
>
> Perhaps one the of the biggest reasons for it staying around is because of IBM.
>   I blame IBM for many of the technology lunacies around today.  Big blue is
> probably the direct opposite of what most people think.  Beware.
>
> HP got their wake up call when Oracle stabbed them in the back.  Not saying they
> don't still have a lot of Java investment, but when you get stabbed the way they
> did, you don't forget it...
>
> Now... what about Android.  Obviously at its hard is Google's bastard Java
> child.  So.. that's potentially a lot of installed Java badness.... but really
> it's a bastard "virtual machine (byte code engine)"... so maybe that's not that
> big of a deal.  We already know that Google has their own language thing
> going... so again, they probably saw the light without getting stabbed.
>
> Stuff to chew on.
>
> Many, if not most, people will disagree with me.  And that's fine.  Just
> remember, to love Java, you really have to place your whole trust in Sunoracle.
>   Just saying...  Or like Google, you end up creating something that's really
> outside of the eco-system...  because you don't necessarily care about anybody
> except yourself.
>
> Oracle isn't that different from HP and Dell, etc... in that they obviously fear
> IBM greatly and believe that they only way to "win" is by acquiring a myriad of
> technologies that .. in all fairness... IBM sort of "wants" them to acquire (the
> burden of acquisitions).  In Oracle's situation you have no fewer than three
> internally competing products surround J2EE application servers (OAS, Weblogic
> and Glassfish).  Maybe it explains some of Oracle's insane behavior?  It's
> enough to make anyone go nuts!
>
> Arguably IBM has some similar internal competing problems...IBM's just a bit
> harsher internally.  Eventually, they do pick a winner and smash the loser...
> IBM is used to ticking people off... they get away with it daily... and ticking
> off their own is always preferable... which may be why they are "winning" (?)
>
> IBM banked on Java because they wanted to totally dominate it.  And if Sunoracle
> keeps going the direction they are going, this could simply be a long term bet
> on IBM's part.  Because they certainly could have purchased Sun.  So maybe they
> figured they could kill two birds with one stone and eventually "acquire"
> Oracle.... which will be easier and easier as Oracle gradually bleeds to death.
>   Only time will tell (and it's a very LONG term bet).
>
> With that said, one could easily argue that IBM has probably 100x more
> dependency on Java than anyone else in the world.. which means, if they can't
> wait for Oracle to die, they may simply force the issue if they perceive too
> much risk there... (remember IBM is a HUGE patent house).
>
> More stuff that might be entertaining:
> http://blogs.wsj.com/cio/2013/06/05/oracle-customers-must-consider-all-available-options/
>
> http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2013/06/05/dell-and-oracle-expand-alliance.aspx
>
> http://readwrite.com/2013/06/03/oracle-adds-more-jolt-to-java-security-procedures
>
> http://www.infoworld.com/t/java-programming/java-out-of-the-spotlight-still-spry-220129
>
> http://www.infoworld.com/d/the-industry-standard/computer-scientists-oppose-oracles-bid-copyright-java-apis-219728
>
> http://www.techweekeurope.co.uk/news/oracles-java-changes-too-little-too-late-118025?ModPagespeed=noscript
>
> http://www.zdnet.com/making-sure-your-java-isnt-a-load-of-old-rubbish-7000015462/
>
> _______________________________________________
> http://www.ntlug.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>
I'm not going to dispute the evils of the profit-minded-world 
(regardless of who they are) and it's a good point to not assume 
anything is going to work regardless.  I noted yesterday yet another 
potential vulnerability in the latest Oracle java release.  I'll keep 
IcedTea in mind if java wipes out but, for now, I'm somewhat like your 
comment "nobody really cares what you are running underneath the covers" 
- as long as it works.  The company I work for uses a product which 
allows remote control of office PCs for work-at-home.  I was very 
pleased to see that, via java, a Linux PC could use the official 
corporate solution because, like too much of the business world, there's 
a one track (= M$) mind.  Yes, there's a Windows-based VPN solution and, 
yes, I gagged myself and bought a copy of Windows 7 for my wife.  
However, I really prefer to not contort my world (have to use Windows) 
just to get some work done.

Now, I'll show my industry ignorance, sad to hear the Android has its 
issues, I really don't want to get gouged by the other choice. Second, 
how did HP get stabbed in the back (wasn't aware)?

Oh, and BTW, hating IcedTea doesn't mean I love java, to me it's a tool 
and, as long as it works (and I mean really works - doesn't work but 
expose me unduly to other evils) I'm OK with it.  So far (the BIG 
disclaimer) java revisions haven't hurt me.

Finally, questions:

What other choices are there other than java and IcedTea?
And the really important one: Does anyone know of a plugin/etc. which 
will automatically turn java off when you exit the browser. My only 
known need for java is this company application but I find myself 
forgetting to turn java off after use, even with QuickJava.